Continental Edison 'Radioen Hi Fi' Front Speaker Grille

An early Christmas present! after many years of searching, I've managed to find a grille for my front radio speaker.

As available for Ds until 1969, the Continental Edison 'Radioen Hi-Fi' radio has 'FM'....... 

Continental Edison 'Radioen Hi Fi' (image copyright: Pfandango)

..... and when fitted to a DS, included a front speaker beneath the dashboard.

Front speaker - just below the radio

The plastic grille was colour-matched to either the 'naturel' leather interior of a Pallas-option car,

or was available in black to go with the black leather option or standard black vinyl of the under-dash piece.

Despite being called 'hi-fi' and despite cars having two speakers, the radios are not stereo. They are dual mono with a trim knob to alter the balance of sound between the front and rear of the car. Regardless, they are things of beauty when paired with a mid 1960s dashboard.

Continental Edison 'Radioen Hi Fi' radios change hands for very high prices these days. In fact sometimes more than I paid for my car back in 1995!

£21 postage? That's steep............

Beginning to look like a bargain...

Some people retro-fit the radios to their cars, but not the front speaker - possibly because you don't see the front speaker parts for sale.

'Radioen Hi-Fi' but no front speaker

When I bought my car (back in 1995) there was no radio (or glovebox) in the dash and just a plain leather under-dash piece. I suspected that a Continental Edison radio had been fitted but - because of it's value and scarcity - it had been removed at some point when the car changed hands. 

My car back in 1995

Every time I drove the car, the gaping hole in the dashboard was crying out to be filled and the obvious (and most desirable) solution was to find an original Continental Edison 'Hi-Fi' radio. This was all pre-Internet and I asked far and wide and I eventually managed to find one courtesy of Olivier Houiller at 'French Classics'. When my car was laid up in about 2000, I was wise enough to remove the radio and store it away. 

Back in 2015 - very soon after I'd started the restoration of my car -  I'd gone over to Holland to the 'Citromobile' event. I  took a list of 'wants' and that first year, one of the things I'd specifically gone hoping to find was that under-dash piece with speaker, knob and grille. it was the first thing i searched for - looking under tables and behind boxes.

I asked a couple of specialist stallholders selling Citroen dashboards and radios but they all sucked air through their teeth and told me they didn't have one. I was therefore gobsmacked when - late in the afternoon of the last day of the auto jumble - someone sauntered by me carrying just the part I'd been after! He told me he'd just bought it from a stall! I was too proud to beg him to sell it to me - but he was gracious enough to let me take a photo of it.

Tintin and The One That Got Away......3.21pm Sunday 3 May 2015

That sense of having missed out lingered with me. Over the years I periodically made enquiries with part sellers and in February 2020 got lucky: Huub In T Zandt had the under dash piece. 

But it was missing its grille. Huub did, however, offer to include a 3D printed grille with the part.

3D printed grille

The 3D version looked like the genuine part, but was a darker colour. It also had a typical, rough printed finish to it and the grid of the grille part was very delicate - with very thin bars on the mesh.

I could easily imagine a passengers knee going straight through it on day one. But the poor quality of the 3D printed parts didn't stop people asking high prices for copies.....

High price.....

.......but poor finish

If buying one was the alternative, then that free 3D grille was a generous extra from Huub and would do, but I also decided I would still keep an eye out for an original and i searched on. My searching even led me to a programme for a 3D print! Though from looking at it, I suspected that was the source of the 3D copies already circulating. 

3D print programme

Using the photo I'd taken at 'Citromobile', I tried on Facebook again last summer..... 

Desperate use of foreign languages....

but was disappointed that it got me nowhere. Last week Facebook reminded me of the 'happy memory' and, on a whim, I decided to try again.......and this time I got a positive reply - from Sweden!

I got lucky!

Not only did Marten have an original grille for sale, but it was brand spanking new, and still in its bag.

Still sealed in it's bag (credit: Marten Ekelin)

I checked the part number  - DS 653 55a - in the Citroen parts catalogue and it tallied.

Extract from parts catalogue 562

Marten's asking price was very fair - less than I expected and less than the cost of a poorer quality 3D print. 

I was a bit nervous of having it posted so close to Christmas, but it's was a tracked and signed-for service. The part arrived from Sweden yesterday and it's everything I could have hoped for.

As I suspected, it's far more substantial than the 3D printed copies with thicker and deeper bars on the mesh and the sort of finish you would expect on an injection moulded part.

Original Citroen part

Being plastic it's still delicate and very hard to replace. perhaps I should investigate getting good quality copies made before I use it?

HP Pump Leak - New Seals?

I've been investigating the leak from my HP pump. From what I can see, the leak appears on the shaft, immediately behind the pulley. Obviously the pump itself is full of hydraulic fluid and - from diagrams and the parts books - there are two rubber seals at points along the pump shaft.

HP pump and two shaft seals - (35) and (37)

I'm currently exploring three possibilities:

• I incorrectly assembled some parts/ seals
• The parts are too worn to seal
• The seals are the wrong size or damaged and ineffective

I can't investigate the first two yet, but I have been looking into replacement 'O' ring seals. I've been trying to understand how fluid would end up on the outer shaft behind the pulley - the routes it could/ would take. Here's that diagram again with what i think are possible leak routes added....

Seals and possible leak routes? (part numbers as per manual 648)

Working backwards from where I see the leak behind the pulley, part 37 seems to be the 'backstop'. It's the last line of defence before fluid leaks out of the pump.

'Part 37' seal on pump shaft

That seal fits again the angled face of a 'deflector' plate. Perhaps the clue is in the name. I think the angle serves to compress the seal both down AND inwards inwards around the shaft as the pulley nut tightens the 'deflector' to the bearing. The old seal I removed was certainly shaped by the angled face.

 Rubber seal squashed by the 'deflector'

Part 35 fits into a channel around the outer circumference of a bronze (or brass?) bush. 

"seal carrier distance piece" and seal.....

The parts book call that bronze part a 'bush' and repair books describe it as a 'seal carrier distance piece' - 'seal carrier' implying it's secondary to the rubber seal - not the other way round. However that spring definitely pushes the part up against the bearing - so the carrier itself must be doing SOMETHING.  And it's the carrier that contacts the shaft, not the seal.

Talking of 'other way round' I check my photos from my original rebuild back in 2018 and I'd definitely put that seal carrier/ bush in the right way round.....

Bronze carrier and seal being fitted

When assembling, the instructions suggest that the bush and seal can be pushed in place and will hold the spring compressed. But as you can read HERE, that was not my experience: the spring forced the bush out of place. I now wonder if that was because the seal was the wrong size and not tight enough? If the seal was not tight enough, fluid might get past it and into the balls of the ballrace - bypassing the seal that is part 37.

I've been seeking other opinions from forums. Now. It's the carrier that contacts the shaft, not the seal (35). The seal seems to hold the carrier steady in the body (i.e. stopping it rotating) while the shaft spins within it. That being so, the consensus is that it's the face of the bronze bush that does any sealing - against the bearing. To achieve this, the surfaces must both be mirror smooth and perfectly parallel. If not - you get a leak....

HP pump bearing

However if the shaft spins in the carrier then surely that means there is scope for fluid to get through the middle?  But I don't think it could get any further: I recall that the bearing outer was a tight fit in pump body and that, when I pressed the pump shaft through the bearing, the bearing got pushed out a little and needed to be re-seated - meaning that the pump shaft was tight on the bearing. With little scope for leaks?

If fluid did get past, perhaps that is where part 37 - the 'backstop' seal came into play? Maybe the bearing didn't re-seat correctly? Maybe the bronze carrier (by now hidden behind the pressed bearing) was in the wrong position? Maybe, maybe, maybe......

The opinion I sought yielded some useful information:

• Leaks from the shaft were pretty common after a rebuild - a bit of a lottery
• Even the big repair companies had some 'fails' with these
• It was the face of the carrier, not the seal that did the (majority of the?) work
• At least one person said they were aware of over-sized plastic and metal seal carriers made up to replace the bronze carrier.
• Some people made up their own 'O' ring repair kits by buying near-equivalent sized seals

So, I've  been investigating seal sizes. The seals I had fitted were part of a pump rebuild kit. 

Pump rebuild kits are available from all the usual suppliers

There was little scope to muddle the seals up, so I didn't think that could be the cause of my problem, however I did think about just replacing those two particular suspect seals - in case they were damaged or faulty. I wanted to avoid the expense of a whole set as I don't need all the seals and am not even sure that these two seals are the source of my problem.

From the parts manuals,

• Part 35 is meant to have an internal diameter of 21.3mm and a seal cross section of 3.6mm, giving an outer seal diameter of 28.5mm
• Part 37 is meant to have an internal diameter of 12.1mm and a seal cross section of 2.7mm, giving an outer seal diameter of 17.5mm

I was surprised to find that the EXACT sizes specified were quite hard to find. I had to look them up with a couple of specialist retailers. As you might expect for something so small, per unit they are very cheap. BUT - to justify their vast ranges and make any sale worthwhile, the specialist manufacturers require you to buy in bulk. To find seals in exactly the right size, it looks like I will need to buy in quantity: 7 in one case...... 

A harder, '75 shore' Viton seal has been recommended for part 35

.......and 132 in the other! 

'Nitrile' and '70 shore' good enough for part 37

In both cases it works out the same - I'll have to spend about £10 per seal type! But even with postage, that's still cheaper than a complete seal kit.

Because of cost, I did wonder whether they go for nearest convenient size, rather than exact size. But I am reasoning that if a near equivalent is under-sized, it stretches, reducing the seal cross section and affecting the outer seal size.  If a seal is over-sized it's compressed and may 'wrinkle' or buckle on its inner diameter.... whether that is correct or not I don't know.

Maybe the problem is that - for convenience and cost - seal kits only contain near-equivalents of these two crucial seals? Conversely: if the correct seals are cheap but simply need to be bought in bulk, then if you are putting together many seal kits, how hard or costly would it be to include one each of the exact right size? I think my glass is half-empty on this and I suspect near-equivalents are being used.

At the end of the day, we are talking about only very small differences in sizes between these costly seals and their cheaper near equivalents. Can it really make a difference or is it all down to that carrier and the ball race? I'm going to have a think about what route to take - exact size or near equivalents.

Radiator Leak

My radiator leak has been persisting. I'd first noticed a leak back in August. at that time i pulled the radiator off and tried to investigate. Having done similar work on an old heater matrix with solder, I had a go at fixing it. But - on refitting - the slow leak remained..... Peering past the fan behind the radiator shows it pooling at the base....

Radiator leak

.....and so I took it off the car again. My friend Peter had offered me an alternative radiator. He'd had it re-cored (with three cores) but hadn't used it. It's off a later DS, so the small M5 sized threads for bolts for the bracing bar and fabric hood are different to those on my car, but that's a minor point. A few weeks ago I visited Peter and collected the radiator from him.

With a back-up radiator now in-hand I had my weeping radiator pressure tested - with a view to maybe getting it fixed properly. But it came back as 'no leak found'. You might think I'd have been happy with that - but I was sure that there was a leak. At home I tried to carry out some more testing of my own. Blocking off the top and bottom inlets/ outlets with offcuts of thick polythene sheet and jubilee clips, I filled the radiator, blocked the overflow with my finger and blew furiously into the filler cap hole. It appeared only very slowly but - as suspected -  I began to see the outcomes of a tiny weep from somewhere within the dark recesses of the radiator. Wherever it was, it was VERY small at the moment.

Based on where the water was appearing, the leak seemed to be from where one of the zig-zag vanes was soldered to one of the outer tubes and - if so - it seemed fairly accessible. I decided to have a go at repairing it again. 

It wasn't accessible. I tried to apply some solder. I heated the area and the 'vane' metal was so thin that it turned to ash... Also, the core tube was so thin that the small hole became a bigger hole - meaning a repair was now impossible...... Never mind. it was just one core on the outer edge of the radiator. I could just plug that core with solder and ignore it. 

I added heat and tried to solder again. It got worse. I think I was kidding myself as the work area was inaccessible and becoming quite dirty by now - with little chance of getting solder to stick. Instead, the heat had caused a hole in the core next door.... and there was a growing absence of 'vane'.....I tried a third and last time.  By the time I had finished, several cores, several rows deep, had sections missing.

I had to finally concede that I'd well-and-truly killed the radiator.  I mean REALLY killed it. I'm very pleased to say that there is no photographic evidence of this but trust me - it wasn't a pretty sight by the time I'd finished. It looked like the radiator had been hit by a small meteor.....

I've got the option of fitting Peter's radiator of course, but I'm going to leave that for the moment as, with the radiator off, it's an ideal time to investigate that HP pump leak.

Orientation of 123 Electronic Ignition

Testing is going well, but one thing niggling me is the 123 electronic distributor. From what I can tell, it's doing exactly what it's meant to do, it's just that it's not quite pointing where I'd expect it to point......Its orientation is 'different'. It's pointing at the oil filler tower.

123 electronic ignition fitted

When I first got my car, it had the wrong distributor for a 2175cc engine. It was a Ducellier 4254D distributor (a 'DV010a') for a 1985cc engine (and then later for 2347cc engines). This is the angle of that distributor.

Ducellier 4254d/ DV 010 distributor

The distributor is pointing to the right of the oil filler tower. I then fitted the correct Ducellier 4155d distributor (a 'DX05a') to my car and it looked like this.....

Ducellier 4155d/ DX05 distributor now fitted

Pretty much the same as the previous 4254d distributor did. In both cases the distributor is pointing between the oil filler tower and the carburettor - towards number 4 spark plug. 

And here's a  mechanical distributor on a 1967 car - presumably with the same engine as my car. The orientation looks to be the same as mine was.

Orientation of (SEV?) distributor on a 1967 car

I say 'was' as I've just fitted 123 electronic ignition to my car. Now the distributor looks like this.....

With 123, distributor points towards the oil filler tower

It's pointing towards the oil filler tower. The upshot of this is that:

• there is tension on the HT lead from the coil to the distributor cap and it could pull out.
• the two thin wires coming out of the 123 to the coil are hard up against a hose near the block and could be broken.
• the HT lead to number one plug has to navigate around the filler tower more and is tighter
• one of the clips holding the distributor cap is hard against one of the studs of the water pump and awkward to access

All in all it looks 'different'. About 15 to 20 degrees 'different'? The drive head of my 123 has fitting holes at 90 degrees apart.

Alternative positioning for 123 drive head

I could rotate the head 90 degrees, but then the distributor cap would point to the heater. I looked at photos of other cars with 123 units and there are plenty that seem to have the distributor cap point to the oil filler tower like mine does. Just to labour the point, here are some examples.

I found at least one where the distributor points more towards the carburettor......

....and some some where the distributor pointed between the carburettor and the coil. 

(Credit: Marius Gradinaru)

And to complete the set, I found one where the distributor points to the heater. I think this is what would happens if I rotated the foot on my 123 by 90 degrees.

In the interests of balance, occasionally I found some that looked about right.

With mine pointing at the oil filler tower, It's only a few degrees difference to the position of my old Ducellier distributor, but seems to have been a deliberate 'thing'. Because of this, I had wondered whether setting the little dial on the side of the 123 to a different position meant that the angle of the unit was different when the timing was being set. So I went through the timing process again. Changing that dial position may have altered the timing characteristics, but it didn't alter the angle of the 123 distributor.

On an American DS forum there is little love for 123. This seems to date back a few years and a to batch of 123s that was deemed faulty because of their alignment once fitted. The distributor cap clip was hard up against the water pump and that prevented setting of the distributor advance. Access to that clip was even harder if the car had a radiator expansion tank fitted. the main problem was felt to be the angle of the hole through the drive heads. 

The American experience - about 45 degrees difference in drive head angle

The response and customer service from 123 was deemed poor or non-existent. As a solution, I think that in some cases different drive heads were supplied for the 123 that altered the angle of the units when fitted and, in other cases, people resorted to re-driiling their heads to achieve a better alignment.

From what I'm seeing on my car at the moment, I can understand some of this, but a small part of me thinks that 123 is a fairly small company. Units are made for/ programmed for a wide range of cars and the company probably only make a few alternative feet.  'Close' is perhaps felt to be 'good enough' or maybe the wrong heads were fitted to that batch of 123s? Although just fitted, my unit was bought in 2018 and has a 2017 manufacture date etched on the side. Perhaps it's one of a faulty batch? All I know is that it seems to work as intended.

Maybe, at some point, I'll try and drill another hole through the drive head but I think at the moment I'm just going to leave things the way they are.